Friday, September 12, 2014
The Foundation of Successful Civilizations: Trade, Religion, or Geography?
During the past two weeks, we've looked at the emergence of the major River-Valley Civilizations (Ch. 2) and the spread of certain religious groups and trading peoples (Ch. 3, especially). Based on what you have studied in others' presentations, what you have read yourself, and what I have shared and what we have discussed in class, make a strong case for which is more important to a successful civilization: trade, religion, or geography. Historians are often divided on these factors and make strong cases for each. Now we must also confront this debate. Please support your argument with with AT LEAST FIVE key details or examples from the text or presentations involving AT LEAST THREE civilizations. Please also make sure to write your argument substantively and thoughtfully in no fewer than 10 sentences.
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After looking at the different civilizations that we have, I believe that religion is the most important factor to keep a civilization going. Many of the civilizations that we have looked at have had strong religious beliefs that are shared by everyone in the civilization. I think that this brings a sense of community to the people as well as more of a purpose than just serving themselves.
ReplyDeleteIn both the Babylonian and Assyrian creation myth, it says that the gods created humans to work the land for them and praise them. I think this idea gave the people of these civilizations a feeling that they were important to their gods.
I think religion also gives people a sense of security. In the Chinese civilization, people believed that after their death the spirits of ancestors would watch over them and bring them good fortune. In this case, I think this part of their religion brought them a sense of safety and that they were not alone.
In the Egyptian civilization, they believed that if you were good in your life, you could go on to live in the beautiful afterlife forever. I think this idea also gave the Egyptians the feeling that there is something great after this and if they are good people who live good honest lives, they will be rewarded.
I think religion also helps justify social practices (not necessarily for the better). In Hinduism, they use the idea of reincarnation and karma to justify the very strict social classes. It was believed if you were born an upper class male, your good karma would come from good deeds in a former life. But if you were born a lower class female, it might be the result of bad deeds in a former life.
In places like India were Buddhism and other religions were also being formed, I think it helped give people a fresh perspective and a new way to think.
Overall, I think the main factor that kept an ancient society functioning was religion because it brought people together, gave them a purpose and made them feel not as alone in the world.
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ReplyDeleteI think religion helped keep many civilizations stay together. Each civilization has gone threw their troubles and experiences, rather it be war or disease and natural disasters. Each civilization, has there own beliefs and religions and myths. They all praise them differently but in many ways are similar.
ReplyDeleteThe Summerians believed that many gods controlled nature. They consider there religion just as important as having a child or getting married. They believed there gods were immortal and powerful, and they had to serve them to keep them happy so they wouldn't set fire or flood to there cities. They built figurines and offered animals and food to help keep the gods happy. After death they didn't believe in gods helping them and after death the souls went to the "land of no return". I think the Summerians did what they did, by praising their gods so they could leave without worrying. I don't think they used their religion to help threw horrible times, but to keep there lives somewhat peaceful.
The Egyptians believed in and worshiped over 2,000 gods and goddesses. They built temples and tributes in honor of them. They also believed in the afterlife and they would be judged for there deeds when they died, and they would have there heart weighed. I think Egyptians believed if they followed the rules, and praised all of the gods and goddesses, and they helped others and weren't selfish, they would live peacefully in the afterlife.
The Harappan civilization was very similar to Hinduism. There hasn't been a discovery a temple or any specific god or goddess. They prayed for for good harvests and safety from floods. I think even though they weren't as committed and they didn't have a set religion with rules and rituals, that they still found religion very important. It helped them feel safe and secure and that they weren't alone during tough times.
The Chinese believed in there religion and followed many rules. They believed that spirits of ancestors could bring good fortune or disaster to the living. They didn't worship the sports but thought of them as troubling or sometimes helpful, who wanted their attention and respect. I think the Chinese didn't really like the religion that was pressed upon them because it was sometimes a burden and if you didn't follow and respect your elders you would be punished. I think religion helped between the communities by making sure you helped In any way you could so you didn't have a disaster but often times, if you followed and respected the spirits they would help and provide safety to the family.
Hinduism is very similar to Egyptians. Hindus see religion as helping with illusions, disappointments and mistakes. They believe in reincarnation and in karma. Karma influences social statues, how you dress, what you can eat and whom you can eat with, your job, and who you will be born into, etc. It is believed that if you are a male, your would be judged on your good deeds and decide what you will be born into, but if you are a female you will be judged on your bad deeds. They also believe in multiple gods and that it is more than a religion, but a way of living. I think religion helped them live as better people and like Buddha, see the world for what is really is. There is pain and sickness and temptations. If you chose to ignore them and focus on helping others, you will be rewarded.
I think all of the civilizations we have studied, are different and similar in many ways. Some only believe in one god/goddess or their ancestors, and other believe in thousands. In the end, I think religion brought all of them together and made them feel safe and that they weren't alone during there troubles. It kept communities and helped with trading because they all had something in common, that they believed in something.
I think that the civilizations were more successful depending on the geographic location. This affected how they could trade and who they could interact with, which is related to religion.
ReplyDeleteOf all the river valley civilizations, China was the only one that remained. This was most likely because of its geography. The cities were surrounded by water, mountains, and deserts, making it difficult for invaders to reach them. This isolation may have also affected their religion and beliefs. China didn't have much contact with other people, so the civilization didn't rely on others for trade, and they created strong religious or social beliefs without other influences.
The Indus River Valley civilization was thought to have declined because of earthquakes and floods. Their geographically location had caused the civilization to disappear. If their cities hadn't been above the tectonic plates, they may have survived.
Also, the Minoans declined because of environmental factors where they lived. They managed to survive after the earthquakes and a volcanic eruption, but after that, they had been weakened, and most of the progress they had made was gone. Other people took advantage of their vulnerability and invaded. The Minoans had, overall, been in a bad location, as the Indus River civilization had.
The Phoenicians actually had reverse luck than China. They were near the sea, and this gave them unlimited trade with other civilizations. Their lives were heavily based on trading, but it worked to their advantage. After the Minoans, they became the most powerful along the Mediterranean. This would have been harder to accomplish of they didn't have access to the sea.
The Hittite empire, even, partly flourished because of their geographic location. They had access to resources that made their iron weapons, and this helped them become one of the stronger civilizations in their area.
Overall, the geography of a civilization affects whether it will thrive, and sometimes it's just a matter of being in the right place at the right time.
All the civilizations we've looked at had a lot in common in that their way of life was impacted greatly by their geographical surroundings, religious beliefs, and their trading patterns.
ReplyDeleteOf these three, I think religion was the least important to their survival. Sure, it was present and important in all the civilizations but could they have survived without it? I think so. Religion did have a big impact, such as defining social classes in the Indus River valley civilizations, or bringing a sense of community inside all the civilizations, but having it isn't the only way to achieve those things. For instance in the Egyptian civilization you were born in a social class, but could change your class by marriage or success in your job. One of the earliest signs of a social classes not based entirely on religious beliefs.
Next is trade, although it was important I don't think it was the most important. Civilizations trading to get what they needed to survive would be very important but as in the case of the Minoans they traded mostly for wines and other crafts. Sure these are important but not as important as trading for much needed food. For instance, people of the Chinese River valley civilization was able to trade amongst themselves which made them pretty self-reliant. Whereas the Mesopotamian civilization, for instance, traded for wines or precious metals.
Geography, I think, is the most important of the three. Impacting of all things, which gods the people pray to. An example being Mesopotamian religion versus Egyptian. Mesopotamia was prone to frequent and unpredictable floods which only worked to help the belief of flood stories. Their gods were also depicted as uncaring and capricious in the widely recognized Gilgamesh epic. Seen as always reminding the humans of their mortality and and undermining the hero's endeavors. Whereas in Egypt their view on gods was much more positive since their geography was much more predictable and overall better. Geography was also important in determining who traded with who and how self reliant each civilization could be. It determined wether they had food to eat or water to drink or weapons to defend with and if not, how easily they could obtain them. Also, while on the topic of weapons, a civilizations geographical surroundings determined how easily it could be attacked and how easily it could be defended. Geography also determined how much natural disasters you received which is thought to be the reason for the demise of many of the ancient river valley civilizations.
In all honestly, not only does a successful civilization need some form of all 3 of these to survive but so much more. Civilizations are more complex than any one factor and acknowledging only one factor takes so much away from all that they have accomplished.
I believe that geographical location is the most influential part towards a civilizations success. Whether a civilization can trade is based on what it has to trade and it's land can provide valuables to trade.
ReplyDeleteThe civilizations of Mesopotamia (i.e. Assyrians and Babylonians) prospered mainly due to their location being an oasis with very fertile land. The land allowed them to grow all sort of crops which opened up trading and overall made the biggest impact toward the civilizations success.
The Hittites choosing to start their empire in Anatolia made it extremely difficult for them to be conquered due to it being a rocky plateau. The geographical advantage of having the higher ground and knowing the land better than their opponents made it so that their land was very easy to defend from oncoming attackers. As well as making it difficult to conquer, their geographical location allowed them to discover iron, which at the time was the most superior metal, outclassing stone tools and stone weapons by a big margin. They were also able to trade iron gaining all sorts of valuables in return.
Egyptians crops and prosperity were so dependent on the Nile. In times of floods the Egyptians lost all sorts of things. But when they're weren't floods, their crops grew easily due to the fertileness of the land. Their geographical locations was a huge factor in why we remember them today as a successful civilization.
The Phoenicians, another prosperous civilization that was known for being remarkable seafarers and shipbuilders were extremely dependent on their location. They used the the waters and their well-built ships to trade with many other civilizations. They traded a very expensive dye that was exclusive to snails that lived around their land. These snails produced a reddish purple dye. The dye was extremely hard to make due to one snail only producing a few drops of dye and some 60,000 snails were required to make a pound of dye. The dye only royalty could afford though, giving it very high trade value when trading with other civilizations.
In conclusion I strongly believe that all of the civilizations we've been studying prospered in part due to their geographical location, and some might've not prospered if they hade built their empire in a different location.
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ReplyDeleteNow that I have seen how many civilizations functioned, I would say that Geography is definitely the most important factor to having a successful community. I think that this is the case because trade has to do with where you are centered. And, in my opinion religion just doesn’t matter that much. Sure, it gives people a sense of safety, but it seems very insignificant compared to trade and geography.
ReplyDeleteFor the city of Sumer, it was located in the Fertile Crescent, which meant they had great farming, but, then again, you have the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers, which had unpredictable floods. Same for the Indus valley civilization, the Indus and Ganges River flooded unpredictably. Although this seems all bad, the flooding also spreads rich soil over the land(s). Geography also had a big role in the ending of the Indus Valley civilization. The fact that they were located on tectonic plates meant that they were prone to earthquakes, which cause tsunamis and that it was we think ultimately demolished them.
Since the Phoenicians were located in Lebanon, which is in the middle of other major countries, it helped a lot with their trading business, because they had easier access to other places.
Then comes the Chinese River Civilization, which had “natural barriers” as the book says. This means that they didn’t have to worry as much about intruders when they were first building their civilization. This would help them develop faster so they could become stronger and conquer more without people realizing where they were coming from.
The unbearable desert that surrounded the Egyptian territory made it harder for them to trade and share their ideas as well as expand their land.
Overall, I think that geography played the biggest role in having a successful community because it’s the conditions of where you live that you cannot change.
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ReplyDeleteAfter studying multiple civilizations, I have to say that geographical location is the most important factor of a functioning civilization. Most if not all of the river valley civilizations were dependent on their rivers. Good and bad things came from these rivers. The geographical influences were always strong, but not always positive. Both positive and negative examples will be used.
ReplyDeleteThe Huang He river of China often flooded small villages. This was one of the negative (but important) influences of the Huang He River. One of the positive effects of the river was the rich silt. Whenever the Huang He did flood, vital nutrients was added to the soil. The soil needs these nutrients to be able to sustain crops.
Another civilization that relied on their geographical location were the ancient Egyptians. If it wasn't for the Nile River, the Egyptians would not have been able to water their crops using irrigation systems from the water of the Nile. Any civilization needs food and crops to sustain itself and the Nile made it possible for the Egyptians. The Minoans also relied on their geography. If it wasn't for the surrounding oceans, they would not have been able to establish their trade based society.
The Sumerians also relied on their geography. In this case, they relied on The Fertile Crescent. Without it no farming would have been able to occur and crops would be out of the question.
Geography is definitely the most important factor. Civilizations rely on it for crops and their safety.
I would argue that the most influential aspect of a civilization would have to be the civilization's geographical location. This affects a civilizations trade, traveling, knowledge of the world outside their home, war, and health. I felt that, although factors like religion and trade can be important as well, the geographical location will always come out on top.
ReplyDeleteFor example, we looked at the Phoenician civilization. A key factor of the reason that they survived for such a long period of time was that they were located near Egypt and Africa, and along the Indian Ocean. They were not only able to use these routes for trade, but also as a way to make money by trading with merchants that came through Phoenicia.
Another example of geographical locations of civilizations greatly affecting ancient civilizations were the rivers near the homes of the River dynasties in China. One river that flows through the west of China to the Pacific Ocean is called the Huang He River. This river affects China disastrously due to its massive floods, which often wiped out entire villages. Thus, the Huang He River was nicknamed "China's Sorrow". Not only did this river greatly impact China's well being, but because of China's geographical isolation, early settlers were not able to trade with the outside world. Also, China's boundaries were incompetent at times, so there are numerous accounts of invasions from the north and west.
And finally, the Indus River Valley. The civilizations among the Indus River were exposed to yearly floods that spread rich soil. However, these floods were extremely unpredictable and the rivers occasionally changed course. The wet and dry seasons were also extremely unpredictable for these citizens. If they got too little rain, the plants would suffer and cause a break out of starvation among the towns, but if they got too much rain, floods destroyed villages.
To me, these examples speak for themselves. These civilizations can flourish due to their location, or they can be succumbed to disastrous floods and harsh starvation.
Geography is important for the success of a civilization. For a settlement to be considered a civilization, it is generally agreed that it needs these five factors: a surplus of food, a dense population, social ranks, a system of government, and collective learning. The geography of a civilization is the basis for the development of these factors.
ReplyDeleteThe fundamental geographic feature needed in a civilizations is a body of water. People need water in order to live. Settlers are therefore attracted to natural suppliers of this life necessity: rivers. All four of the earliest civilizations revolved around rivers: Egypt and the Nile, India and the Indus, China and the Yangtze and Huang He, and Mesopotamia and the Tigris and Euphrates. Most all civilizations begin near this ideal geographical feature.
Another geographic feature civilizations must have is fertile land for producing crops. Food and agriculture are needed for the development of a civilization. Civilizations begin near rivers which provide rich soil for farming. For example, Egypt is called “The Gift of the Nile” because of the fertility the river contributed to the soil. Likewise, Mesopotamia is referred to as “The Fertile Crescent” because of the rich land between the rivers. Without good land for agriculture, a civilization would not be able to function.
In addition to creating a water supply, geographic changes in rivers helped to bring people together. People of a civilization must be united and organized. Even with all their positive aspects, rivers brought challenges as a result of flooding and, in some cases, unpredictability. People had to unite to control the rivers and use them to their advantage. In Mesopotamia, farmers dug irrigation ditches to carry water from the river to the fields to help grow crops. In the Indus Valley, people planned their cities well and designed them so they would be above possible floodwaters. In order to overcome challenges brought by the rivers, people in these civilizations were forced to work together.
Geographical barriers such as mountain ranges and deserts can help protect civilizations from foreign invaders and give them time to make cultural developments. The Indus Valley is protected on one side by a desert and on another side by mountains. This protection allowed the Indus Valley people to prosper culturally. They developed an incredible plumbing system, and they were prosperous enough to make unnecessary goods such as toys. Without the constant fear of attack, civilizations can focus on cultural advances
If suitably geographically located, civilizations can spread through trade and travel. Transportation is only easy if the civilization is conveniently located. For example, the Nile River was a dependable system of transportation for travel between Upper and Lower Egypt. Also, the location of the Minoans on Crete and the Phoenicians along the Mediterranean Sea made it easy for them to spread, trade, and travel all around the Mediterranean and, for the Phoenicians, around Africa. In an ideal geographic area, a civilization can easily trade and spread.
The geography of a civilization impacts and plays an important role in the creation, development, spread, and success of a civilization.
I believe that the most important part to a thriving civilization is the geographical location. Yea religion brings the community to together and trade bring other supplies to the civilization. That could means nothing if you can't do anything with your land.
ReplyDeleteWith good land you can have a thriving civilization. For example the Egyptians. If they had a very deserty area, which was bad for growing crops and surviving. But the Nile that area around that one river made it into one of the largest empires of that time.
Another example is the Mesopotamians they were in a place that had unpredictable flooding and drought times are also a bad thing to have in a civilization.
Not only geographical features, but being an an area with high chances of a natural disaster won't help a civilization flourish. Yes you can do things like the Indus did with their piping to somewhat stop the flooding when the river does over flow. But not only did they have to worry about the river they had to worry about monsoons and their strong winds. This would always be a problem for the Indus.
No place was in a perfect area, there were always problems. But if a place is somewhere safe from most bad things it's in a good shape. And a good geographical place would also mean trading could happening easily either by water or land. So not only will you get a good geographical place but a good trade area. They usually coincide with each other.
With good location comes an abundance of crops. You can have a wide variety of crops to grow every season. The soil would be able to produce those crops because they would have plenty of nutrients. Mesopotamia and the empires that ruled had great farming area so they had plenty of food. Plenty of food means that the people won't starve.
Finally, good geographical area could prevent attackers from invading. If you have mountains, a desert (like the Egyptians), or something hard for enemy to traverse it will be a natural wall. It would protect the city and the people in it. What more could you ask for. A personal barrier between your city and bad people and you don't have to build it. I say that's a good thing.
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ReplyDeleteThe textbook definition of culture: a society whose attributes include: food surplus, social ranks, government, writing, and culture. Examining these, can we figure out which is really essential for a civilization? Is there a secret ingredient?
ReplyDeleteFood surplus: food surplus relies purely on geography. Phoenicia couldn't have had food surplus without living in a area with trees to make their ships and trade to get their food surplus. The northern Chinese couldn't have grown barley without the fertile silt brought down by the Yellow River from the Loess Plateau. Egypt couldn't have grown anything without the silt of the Nile creating the Black Land. So geography is essential, to civilization, but is it the only thing that is essential?
Can you have trade without a surplus of food? You might say no, but if you closely examine every single civilization we've looked at, you will notice a gaping exception. The Phoenicians. They built ships without a surplus of food, and started trading without a surplus of food. So in their case the surplus came from trade? Look closer. Indirectly, that surplus comes from geography. How could the Phoenicians have built those ships if they didn't live in an area that had trees? So you cannot have trade without a food surplus. Which by extension means that geography is responsible for the beginning of trade for a people.
Can you have religion without a surplus of food? Yes. As a matter of fact, you can. The Indo-European Nomads we looked at that wandered the steppes without a food surplus all had religions as I briefly mentioned in my presentation in the context of them mingling with Akkadian civilization. But what makes one religion different from another? A lot of the time, it all comes back to geography. For example the civilization along the Nile, a more reliable river had much more reliable gods then the civilization that lived along the unpredictable rivers, the Tigris and Euphrates did. Their gods were random and uncaring.
So my conclusion. It should seem obvious to you now that geography is responsible for trade and religion. If it is, how can it not be the most important element in making a civilization? It CANNOT be the only element (you can not have a civilization without all three of these factors) but it is the element that is responsible in bringing forth the other elements.
In my opinion, geography is the key to having a successful civilization.
ReplyDeleteI don't say that religion or trade aren't important factors to a successful civilization, but geography plays the main role. I first believed religion was the key to success but I realized it can end up being the main key to destroy a civilization. I say this because, an example, apart of the Minoan's culture was to sacrifice. Animal sacrifice, I could understand, but it was found that there had been human sacrifice. That's the thing about religion, people sometimes do the extreme to please a higher power.
The city of Mesopotamia faces the Mediterranean Sea, and framing are the Tigris and Euphrates. The Nile river is along Egypt. The Indus and Ganges River affects India, same the Yangtze and Huang He affect China. Of course, there are cons to having body of waters surround a location. Floods were one of the negatives. But like everything else, there are negatives. The positives were that it helped with farming which lead to trading. With trading, the civilizations grew economically. This helped the maintain wellness of the people.
With the help of geography, the people in each civilization grew wiser. I say this because the floods they went through prepared them. It helped them come up ideas to lessen the damage of the flood. Overall, geography leads to many factors that create a successful civilization.
I believe that the most important and influential factor to a civilization's
ReplyDeletesuccess is their geographical location. In any civilization whether or not
you will be able to have good and efficient trade routes is mostly based
on your civilization's location. Also the religion (which is a huge part of a
civilizations culture) of a particular place can differ depending on what
people observe in their day to day lives.
The civilizations in Mesopotamia prospered for a long time mostly
because of their location. The reason that this place thrived is because it
was an 'oasis' of fertile land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers in a
dry arid place. The geographic location of these civilizations (Assyrians,
Babylonians, etc.) opened up trading with other cultures around them for
their crops and greatly influenced their success.
The Phoenicians also did well due to their location in what is currently
known as Lebanon. These sea faring ship builders used their expertise in
sailing to maneuver throughout the Mediterranean and much more for
trade. Being able to trade with a wide variety of settlements gave you
more opportunities to make money by transporting something that is
plentiful in one place but rare in another. Thus making a profit which the
Phoenicians wealthy. But the most desired Phoenician trade item was not
plentiful anywhere really. Their most valuable trade item was a dyed red-
purple cloth. The dye was made from drying a Murex snail. When you dry
one it only leaves one drop of red-purple dye ... or two if you're lucky.
Around 60,000 snails were equivalent to one pound of dye which only
royalty could afford.
Another prime example is the Hittites who started on a rocky plateau in
a city called Anatolia. The cleaver location gave them a huge advantage
over civilizations that might want to attack them because they had the
higher ground. Not only did they have the upper hand in a fight because
of the higher ground but they also had access to iron. Iron was known
among the ancient peoples as way stronger than bronze. Even though the
process was complex, the Hittites made an efficient process to create iron
weapons with the plentiful supply of iron ore and wood from the
mountains of Anatolia. The Hittite's success was greatly dependent on
their geological location.
I think that empires can rise to power or fall because of their
geographical location. It is in my opinion the most important factor to a
civilization's success.
As shown in the presentations, geography is a very important factor of a successful community. I personally believe that it is the most important factor. In Egypt, two big reasons that they thrived were that the Nile River was very predictable with its tides, making it easy to tell when to retreat back away from the rivers edge, and the red and black lands were also important for the Egyptian civilization. Without the black land, there would be no fertile land for the Egyptians to farm and create a working civilization, but while the black land was important for growing their population and culture, the red land provided protection on two sides from invaders, making it a very useful advantage.
ReplyDeleteAs we learned, unlike the Nile River in Egypt, the Ganges and Indus rivers in the Indus River valley civilization are not predictable with the tides and flooding. This caused flooding of villages and farms. That is another reason why geography is the most important factor of a thriving civilization. It shows how much one unpredictable flood can strongly affect a civilization.
Another good example is the indo-Europeans in the plateaus. The plateaus provided protection because invaders couldn't get to the top of the plateaus easily to attack them. This is thought to be the main reason of their success as a civilization. This demonstrates how geography can make a civilization powerful because of their location. Also, since trade was not abundant because of the though terrain, it brought the community together to rely on one another.
That is why I think that geography is the most important key to a successful civilization.
Geography, Religion and trade are all huge factors of how different civilizations survived, but I think geography was the most important one. There are parts of geography that determine your religion and what you worship and trade really depends on geography. I think that where you are located really determines everything. It determines what you eat, who you can trade with and how you survive.
ReplyDeleteIn Egypt, the Nile was the most important thing in the Egyptians lives. As the it said in the presentation, life revolved around the Nile. The Nile was used for transportation to trade with other areas and groups which made trade much easier. The Egyptians even worshipped the Nile as a god. Geography, at least in Ancient Egypt, was the most important because it was the main reason why it lasted so long.
For the Indus River valley civilization, I think geography was also pretty important. The Indus River ran right through India so it made the soil great for crops which, of course, helped the Indus River valley civilization survive. Many civilizations flourished around the Indus River. The Indus River was also very important to these civilizations because they were the first to use plumbing and without the river, they couldn't have come up with the idea of plumbing. If they hadn't come up with the dies of plumbing, it is possible that no one would have because they used their way of plumbing and sanitation for a very long time, even after the civilization ended in around 1740BC.
The last reason I think geography was most important to these civilizations is because the the Fertile Crescent was very important to the Sumerians. The Fertile Crescent was their main source of crops and if there no fertile land was available, there would be nothing to eat and of course, the Sumerians would die off.
Geography, to me, was the most imparting factor of life for these civilizations. Trade, food, religion and other things depended on different parts of the geography. Whether it was the rivers or the soil, if the geography were different for any if these civilizations, they would not have lasted as long as they did.